Episode #124

ASC Close-Up / Cybel Martin, ASC

TRANSCRIPT

Tara Jenkins: I'm Tara Jenkins with American Cinematographer, and I'm sitting here live at the ASC Clubhouse with Cybel Martin, new ASC member. Very excited to talk to you today.

Cybel Martin, ASC: Thank you so much. Great to be here.

So I guess we can just dive right into your childhood.

Oh, my God. Okay. Really?

What were some of the films growing up that influenced you and made an impression, whether that was to pursue cinematography or just film in general?

Well, I mean, I didn't decide to become a cinematographer until later in my life, until college, but growing up, I remember, like, still in my mind, I remember what it was like going to see Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the first time. Like, it's still of all the movies I saw as a kid, I remember who I was with. I remember everyone's reactions to different moments. And it was this, like, like watching, it's still with me today, like I still have this, like, love of like, magical moments happening in the everyday. And that movie just was, like it was, you know, contemporary story with something otherworldly and just shot so beautifully. I mean, like all the, you know, UFO alien movies that I had seen, I guess I hadn't seen that many, but even still, like the way it is shot is just on another level still. And so anyway, so I remember that experience of just being like, awe and wonder, what Spielberg did so well. It's just like, you know, I was a child of awe and wonder, like, "whoa." And what also was so important about that movie for me growing up is that it was something our family kept referring back to, you know, I remember my mother, like, like, making some joke again, like we were like, I don't know if we were driving, being like, oh, you know, with the spaceships going like, it stayed in the conversation for so long, and I still, like, if I can, I will always watch that movie. It might be one of the films I've just seen the absolute most, so that stuck with me. And it's something else though. Growing up, there was like one night my mother, like I was asleep, my mother woke me up and she said, "Easy Rider is on. You have to watch it. It's an important film." And I think that might have been the first time where I realized that there are films that are that can be entertaining, which, you know, Close Encounters definitely was. But then seeing Easy Rider was on TV, so I didn't see it theatrically, but the idea that a film could be important, I mean, I wouldn't call it an important film for me, other than, you know, this experience, but for my mother, it was significant enough to wake me up and be like, You need to watch this. So obviously this is before, like, DVRs and whatever, and that's just always stuck with me, like I tease her about it, like you woke me up to watch a movie, but that's that's the house I was raised in. That's how my parents are. So those are really important. When it came to being a cinematographer, my story is watching Taxi Driver in college and just being so overwhelmed, and like having so much to analyze when you took the sound off, that just looking at the cinematography. There was this whole narrative being constructed based on lens choices and lighting. And I was like, "Wow, I want to do that," because the written word is not my strength, but I'm definitely visual. I'm a painter, I'm a photographer. Growing up, I was doing both those things already, so this idea that was like, watching Taxi Driver for the first time I was, like, really conscious of the power of cinematography. I mean, I felt it before. It just wasn't in a classroom setting where we got to discuss it. And that was just, you know, immensely powerful.

I love that story that your mom literally got you out of bed.

So it was a school night, too.

Oh, my gosh, yeah. So, I mean, is that? Do you feel like your parents really instilled that love of movies in you?

I'm named after a movie, for starters. So yes, so both my parents are huge cinema lovers. There's a French movie called Sundays and Cybel, which I believe won an Oscar in 1961 for best foreign films. I'm named after that. So yes, parents are huge lovers, still, of films and growing up. So besides seeing films, like my best friend in high school, we used to go to [the 8th Street] Playhouse. What was the name of it? It's like the like a movie theater on Eighth Street in New York, this which is now [the club] Playhouse. And then maybe now something else. But anyway, they would but anyway, they would always do, like double features. And me and my friend would always go there, see these double features of these classic movies, or just like whatever. And so yes, it was definitely instilled by my parents and I've just always had friends also who were excited about films beyond whatever was the blockbuster. So growing up, I would see, you know, I see whatever, like the hot movie was, but then would also go to, like, you know, smaller theaters and see like retrospectives, or just absorbing them. Like anywhere I could, I would watch a movie.

So this is a big question. What cinematographers past or present do you admire? It can be a truncated list or the 100 name-long list.

So we'll do another podcast, and I'll list the 100 that have inspired me and mean so much to me, and then I will feel immense regret later that I missed someone and the list is just so long. Someone else asked me recently, like, who were some of my favorite cinematographers, or meant something to me? And I was like, like, when I was like, you know, a baby DP, I would call it, and reading the book Masters of Light, because that book was not only about their process, you know, what lights they use, or whatever, but it was also about how they handled crews like, you know, just how they handled disagreements, like, their approach to life on set. And it had such an impact on me. So many of the DPs that were like these, like mentors in my head are in that book. And I still have my one book where I had like, I would underline, I would also highlight other things, and I would take notes like, you know. And it's just it's been ingrained. And then there's, like, more recent DPs, I mean, there's so much gorgeous work out there. Some people know that I do this thing. I've been doing it since 2009 where I watch a new movie every day. And by new, I mean, it's a movie I've never seen. So every day I watch a new film, and that just forces you to see films from other countries. And you'll watch a movie, and be like, the cinematography is phenomenal. Who is this person? And then I'll be like, "well, now I have to research them." And so, yeah, the list is so long. I mean, I mean obviously Vilmos [Zsigmond, ASC]. I'm I'm saying obviously, but like Haskell [Wexler, ASC] and Conrad [Hall, ASC] and just like that whole generation. [Roger] Deakins [ASC, BSC], clearly. I mean, it just goes on. I mean, like all of what's happening with Mexican cinema is just mind-blowing, mind-altering, just so fantastic. I mean, I did a job recently in Korea, and I love Korean films so much I haven't even memorized all the cinematographers, but I love their esthetic. I just love a lot of the films coming out of Korea. And you know, if I was better prepared, I would have already memorized them, so I could be like, well, so and so and so and so. But it's just the list is really long. This is really long,

Which is great that you can find inspiration in so many places. What sparked your interest in photography?

And so with that question, you mean, like, literally, photography or cinema?

Well, I mean for you, I would say both.

Yeah. Well, I mean, for photography, my father gave me his Minolta 35 millimeter camera when I was, like, 10 years old, and I kept it, I mean, he then got me one later, and now I have both of them. So I just loved I, you know, I don't know, like, how, like, I look at my photographs from when I was a kid, and there's so much about my street photography when I was young, which is, I still approach subjects the same way. So I'm not really sure where that came from, but I've been shooting 35 since, like, around 10 years old, and I don't know, like my parents took photographs, but I really don't know where that desire to tell the story, you know, in a frame. I don't know where that came from, but...

It's like it's been something that has been part of your DNA...

Yeah, absolutely. I just don't know where I learned how to take a photograph. Like, what that meant? Like, no one told me. I just grabbed my father's camera and I would just walk around and, I mean, like, 95 percent of the photos I took when I kid are just trash, you know, it's like, "Ooh, there's a swan in the lake." You know, lots of pictures of a swan in the lake. It's telling no story at all. But there was one photograph I took of someone doing, like, caricatures in Central Park. And the photograph is, like, a really interesting picture, because it's capturing the person drawing and who they're drawing, and someone else looking at the drawing. And so like I was aware enough to find a story outside of just the action, how other people were interacting to that moment. And that's still what I look for when I'm doing photography.

Now it seems like you had this idea of storytelling from a young age. When it came to learning about cinematography, where did you train?

So I did film analysis in undergrad at University of Pennsylvania. And then afterwards, I got my MFA at NYU at Tisch in film production, and that was was like the basic, and then while I was in film school, I would work over the summers, which is, you know, obviously training. And then on weekends, if I could, I would work on, like, music videos and commercials, like, whatever it could be, like a one day, two day shoot. And that's definitely all part of my education. I also did a little internship at Kaufman Astoria Studios in the rental department. Yeah, that was so great, just to see what orders, like, what DPs, what lighting orders they would get for films. And you know, just, I would help pick the orders. And I learned so much from like, looking at lights much bigger than anything that was at film school was fantastic. Was a great job.

Who were some of your early teachers or mentors?

Definitely Sol Negrin [ASC], who taught at NYU. Like, the absolute best. I adored Sol because he encouraged, like, I love still, I love to sort of break rules. And he just encouraged you just to have fun with cinematography. And I think that's really what you should be doing. I mean when, certainly, when you start, and he was just enthusiastic and supportive all the time, even after I graduated from NYU, whenever I had, like, significant good news, I would always shoot him an email or something, and he would be very excited. And you know, I really appreciated that enthusiasm. I tell his son [Michael Negrin, ASC] that still, whenever I see him, Sol meant a lot to me. And then another person was and he also knows this, Patrick Cady [ASC], who was ahead of me at film school, but I really appreciated and admire still how generous he was with his knowledge. And ridiculously enthusiastic. And anyone who knows Patrick Cady knows he's still like that, like just so excited to share what he knows. And definitely in your journey as a filmmaker, you'll come across a lot of people who don't want to sort of tell you their secret sauce, as if that is enough to you know, make a great movie. But as long as I've known Patrick, he's always been enthusiastic and kind, encouraging, and very knowledgeable and really excited to share whatever it is that he knows. And then I was also thinking like other, I mean, not mentors, but the film, when I was growing up, the film community in New York was, relatively speaking, small, but I did gain a lot of support. So I don't know if you call it a mentorship. But the organization Cinematographers XX, which was a collection of women cinematographers, just going to parties together, or just workshops and talking gear and, you know, challenges in the work, like, you know, getting work or keeping work, or whatever. I love the community that I built back in New York with that organization.

That's wonderful. I think it's great to hear about communities of cinematographers helping each other. What are some of your key artistic influences?

Key artistic influences? So I'm also a painter, and I still shoot photography, and so fine arts is always important to me. There's Impressionists and Gustav Klimt, there's Picasso. There's a lot of painters that mean a lot to me, and I will see them sort of creep into my work as a cinematographer and as a painter, like German expressionists, I love and then with photography, like photojournalism, I also get really excited about fashion photography. I learned a lot about fashion photography. So those are like big influences outside of film, you know. And like I said, I will watch a movie every day, and if I'm working a lot, then I have to watch several movies on a day to kind of catch up. So all those films are other ones just seeping in, and I'm not even aware that they're influencing me.

So okay, so you started in 2009 Do you know, like, how many since you started this? How many movies have you seen?

Pretty much every year, I definitely have seen a movie a day. There've been some years where there was, like, far more. For whatever reason, it was easy to, like, just get in a lot of films. So for the last few years, I do keep track of them, but I'm usually pretty good at, you know, doing at least one a day. So, you know, say, let's just say, you know, let's say there's some years where I didn't meet the market. Let's just say even 300 a year, you know.

So it's a good number. Yeah, that is impressive. How did you get your first break in the business?

I would say, like, I worked on, when I was in college, I worked on a movie in Minnesota, and I don't even remember the name of it or how what happened to it, but I wouldn't count that. It was like, for two weeks I worked on that because I was interested in film production. But what I would say was my true break into film was when I was in film school. Someone else recommended me as a third grip on a feature film that was shooting that summer. It was a movie called Manny and Lo, which was one of Scarlett Johansson's first movies. I want to say something, maybe her third or fourth movie, or something, she was super young, and so I did that job, and it was so much fun. I learned so much, and I made so many good friends on it. And it's like, you know, you do jobs where you're shooting on location, so everyone's living in like, the same hotel together, eating meals together. And it was so much fun. And we called it “Camp Manny and Lo" and so not only did I make so many friends, it was also business. It's contacts, like people who went on to get me more work. It's such an important movie. And there's a bunch of people on the film who were so excited when I joined the ASC, like, because they've known me for so long. They, you know, they remember me when I was a grip who just really didn't know a lot about gripping that had so much fun. It was such a great job.

I mean, that sounds like a pretty satisfying moment on a project, but what are one or two more moments that really stand out over your career, whether it's like something you're super proud of achieving, or like the crew was just amazing, or what have you?

Well, I mean, for crew like my crew on XO, Kitty Season Two in Korea, I miss them every day. They know that we all like we all know how much we love each other. They're like, the most phenomenal crew experience that I've had, and then also just the camaraderie and joy that I still have for my crew on A League of Their Own. Like, we still, still text each other, and that was a few years ago. Like we have, like the camera department has a group chat, and we still check it in on each other. And so those two projects were absolutely phenomenal in terms of, like, satisfying experiences, beyond just sort of having a great crew shooting one of the episodes of American Horror Story. And like I love when a script says, a scene takes place at twilight or sunset. I love those challenges. Like, I'm so like, when the script just says "Day," you're like, "Okay, anything's day, night, whatever's night." But when they ask for a scene to happen at sunset, I'm like, "Ah..." I love an artistic challenge with a time crunch, which is insane, but I love that. I live for that and on American Horror Story, like the AD department was so spectacular and just sort of helping me get what I need when I needed it, so that we could shoot this one scene. It takes place as the sun is setting, and it was like four cameras outside of a drive-in movie theater looking in all directions. It was, like, beautiful or organized chaos. I still like, I don't look at most of the things that I've shot. I still will re-watch that episode because, one, I think it's really scary. I think it was really well-directed, and I'm also just super proud of that work, and it's the kind of show that I would watch, even if I didn't work on it, which I do. I mean, I'll watch pretty much all of American Horror Story.

So, I mean, I always love to hear stories about people getting to work on something that is also something that they would watch. Do you have any memory—? Do you have any memorable blunders? As I have a blunder right here, trying to say blunders?

Yes, memorable blunders. Certainly in the days of film, there was all sorts. One that was a really good teaching moment that didn't end up costing anything is I'd shot a short film a long time ago called The Gilded Six Bits on 16mm. I don't even think it was Super 16. It was just regular 16. And I gave notes for our print that I wanted it to look like Daughters of the Dust. I didn't give any references, though, and so that was the big lesson. So what they heard was Daughters of the Dark, which are like... So, Daughters of the Dust, which is a gorgeous, beautiful, you know, luscious brown skin, lots of white, crisp yellows, like, you know, blue skies. Daughters of the Dark is a fantastic, I think it's like a vampire movie or something. And so they're like great movies, wildly different. So they remembered me saying Daughters of the Dark. And so the director had to edit, you know, on a Steenbeck, and then show, you know, to other people, before we could get an actual time print, like, our final print, had to show this version, which was like, ridiculously dark and shadowy, which is not at all what I shot. And so the final product I'm really happy with. And I was like, that is the lesson, like, never assume people understand or remember correctly what your references are. So now I am, like, a huge, like, ever since then, huge fan of just reference material. Like, never assume anyone understands. Like, if you say you want something red, you still have to show exact examples of what you mean when you say "Red." Yeah, that was a good teaching moment.

What's the best professional advice that you've received?

When I was starting, someone had said, "Just shoot everything." And I always pass that on, and I always tag tack onto it, though, like at some point you have to know when to start saying "No" to work, which is another learning experience. And I don't even know how, I wouldn't even know how to tell people how to find out when that moment is. But certainly when you start, there's just a lot of value of just shooting everything. Because in your head, you think you know what kind of cinematographer you are and you want to be and what jobs you're best at, you're like, "no, I'm only going to shoot these kinds of films under these conditions with this kind of crew." And if you really just keep shooting different things, you realize that your strengths may not be what you thought they were, or where you're most comfortable is in somewhere else. Like, you know, for argument's sake, say someone's like, "I really only want to shoot romcoms," and then they just take a gig doing sports and like, "Wow, actually, I'm fantastic at sports," like, you know, whatever, like, whatever it is, and so it's just great, like, just don't have any preconceived notions of what your strengths are or where you fit best in the industry. But if you just keep shooting, then you learn a lot about yourself and what you need to do your best work.

You mentioned, like, a point where you don't take every gig, yeah, how do you know when you get to that?

I don't think you do. And I mean, like, you ask around, you know, people be like, "is it time to start saying, you know, 'no' to this kind of work?" And like I used to, I predominantly would grip, like, that was how I made money, predominantly when I graduated from film school, that, and then, like, working on documentaries as a cinematographer, and I was a friend of mine was producing music videos, and so he invited me to the color session for a music video. And he really wanted me to meet the director, and, you know, get some work as a cinematographer on music videos, which is really great. And then the DP was there. Also, I remember wanting to talk to the DP about getting work as an electrician or a gaffer. And then, you know, another good piece of advice. Someone said "you cannot ride two horses with one ass," meaning you had to pick one. Like, in that instance, I'm like, am I trying to get work as a DP, or am I trying to get work as a gaffer or whatever? You just have to, at some point, just be like, "this is what I want to do." Just bet on yourself. And around that time, I remember talking to other people, like, like people saying it might take up to a year for you only to get calls for what you want, and so just be prepared for like, a year of not working in, you know, like just saying no all the time. And that definitely happens where you're like, "No, I'm not shooting that kind of stuff anymore. No." Like your people know you for that piece of work or whatever, and you just have to keep saying “No” until those calls fade out, and then hopefully you start getting calls for whatever it is that you want to focus on. It's risky. Yeah, it's totally risky. So, yeah, I don't, I don't think you know, you just have to bet on yourself. Just take a chance on yourself that you can figure it out.

Definitely, it takes some courage to do that. Yeah, what recent books, films, other kinds of artwork have inspired you?

Okay, so the Mickalene Thomas show at The Broad, and then also the William Kentridge show, also there, which I think was last year. Like, I'm, like, absolutely obsessed with William Kentridge, but both those shows were phenomenal. I just, like, I just wanted to, like, devour them. I just wanted to eat them whole both. So, like such great artists, I have such respect for their craft. And like how it seemed like every choice was just filled with intention, like that's always what I aspire to do, is that every choice has a goal behind it. And I just really feel that from both of their work. I mean, both their work is like completely different, but I'm madly in love with both of those. In terms of books, a dear friend of mine got me in this habit of, whenever I travel, to read a book from an author from that country. And so, yeah, I read a few books that take place in Korea. There was one call, I can't remember the name of the author, called, If I Had Your Face [by Frances Cha], and it's a contemporary book about young women in Korea. And that was really insightful. Just to give me an idea of what contemporary life and angst might be while I was there, and I also was in Vietnam after Korea, and read a book called— I can't remember it right now, but it had to do with this sort of biography about his family living between the between two different wars in Vietnam. And that was super insightful, because I came like, smack dab, like, aware of how little I know about Vietnam, like, it's really limited. And so reading the book was super helpful, then being in Vietnam and going to museums and, yeah, that was just really a great experience. It's just been a really great habit to find a book for that country. At least one book is a great education, because the more I travel, the more I realize how little I know. Yeah, and I feel like a lot of those countries like, back to films, like, there's so many films, like, I was just thinking like The Deer Hunter, there's so many movies that are influential for me, that have some in one way or another, are referencing the war. That's what I would say, is those books. And there was a Harlem Renaissance exhibit recently at The Met in New York, and I knew I had to go to that. I've always been obsessed with the Harlem Renaissance, and that was phenomenal. I just felt like, I kind of felt like I had to go just to pay tribute to those artists. It sounds sort of strange, but I was like, I need to go there and see the work and just sort of be in that presence. Because I've always been fascinated about that time. I've always been fascinated with that collection of artists, and so that was also a really great experience. So I mean, any chance I get to go to a museum, I will absolutely take it. Yeah, absolutely.

I love that practice of reading a book from the place that you're traveling. Yeah. Do you ever do that with films too? Like, you're gonna be working in Korea, so you're watching Korean films, or...

Not really, because I already watched so many Korean movies. So it wasn't like I got the job and I'm like, "oh, I need to brush up on Korean films." Like, the hardest thing about working in Korea is that there were Korean films on TV, in theaters all the time that did not have English subtitles. So, you know, I'm like a kid in a candy store who can't have access to any of the candy. And I'm like, I love Korean, like thrillers and horrors especially. And I couldn't, I couldn't understand what was happening as soon as I was sitting in my hotel room watching a Korean movie and saying, "Well, maybe I can figure it out." So, no, I have, and I'm trying to think of like, there are other countries, you know, truly there are. There's a bunch of countries that just don't really have a healthy enough film industry or a respectful enough representation of films done.

Do you have any, I mean, you just mentioned some genres that you really love, like Korean thrillers. Is there any genre that you're dying to try?

I really want to shoot a war film. Like, what really attracts me to a project is if I feel that there's something intimate about a story, but that's told on a grand scale. Like, if I can find that kind of combination of really, like a very intimate, personal journey for someone, but still told in a big way. And I've never shot a war. And I mean, I'm also, like, just ridiculously, like, so against like violence, and which is so strange, because I love horrors. I love thrillers. I love doing films with, like, battle scenes and car chases. But like, if I say something sarcastic and it hurts someone's feelings, I feel awful. So I don't know where it comes from, but I do love the energy filming, you know. So, anyway, so war, war would be, like, some sort of war-related subject film would be really fascinating for me, because, like, I've watched a lot of them, and the ones that really speak to me are about, you know, not a, it's not a big, you know, sweeping "we're going to get them," it's personal struggles. You know, being in a war you don't believe in, or, you know, having a war thrust upon you, or whatever it is. I've always been fascinated by those movies. So, yeah, I would love to do a war film.

If you weren't a cinematographer, what would you be doing instead?

Urban planner? Yeah, the goal always had been that, like growing up, I was like, "okay, I'm gonna be a cinematographer. I'm gonna win an Oscar at age 30 — oops — and then after that, I'm gonna go off and be an urban planner." So I've always been fascinated with urban planning. What fascinates me would be like, artist housing. I have friends who are actual urban planners, and they listen to my ideas, and they're like, "yeah, that's not gonna work," but I'm still super passionate about it. So in this, this world in which I'm no longer a cinematographer, I would be a very successful urban planner. And the other thing which we I'm gonna pull off somehow, is I really want to design clothing for below the line [crew].

What are some of your ideas for that?

I have so many, and it'll be so easy, because all I have to do is, like, interview my friends. Like, we never have the right pockets. We never have the right colors. It's never rain proof when it needs to be. Like, we're always like, "Where'd you get that? I got it at Eastern Mountain [Sports]." "Okay, okay, I'll go get it there." And then, "Where'd you get that?" "Well, there's this person who makes shoes for, you know, nurses," and so, okay, I'll buy, like, we're always, like, scrounging around trying to find something that works. And then you want to look cute, you know, and then it's a 16 hour day, and now you're uncomfortable. So it'll be very easy to do research on what people want. I know what I need as a DP, but certainly, you know, other people sound the rest of the camera department, grips and electrics, you know, we all have needs that we sort of, you know, we do. We make do. And so I'd love just to have a clothing line for us. Yeah.

Well, sign me up when that drops. I absolutely want in on that.

I mean, there is, there is someone who tried something, because I used to speak about this on Twitter, like, I used to be very, very, very, very chatty on Twitter, and someone sent me a link of someone's making clothing for camera women. And I remember looking at it and being like, "yeah, that's not quite what I mean." So yeah, when it comes to good ideas, there's definitely a like, you know, you want to pull it all in. And then sometimes you just think, if it really is supposed to be me who does it, it will be me who does it, yeah.

So on a bit of a different note, what ASC cinematographers recommended you for membership?

So Alan Caso, Michael McDonough and Steven Poster.

How has ASC membership impacted your life and career?

Well, seeing as I've been in for, like, I don't know, two weeks, two and a half weeks, my life has drastically changed. No, but it hasn't. It hasn't. I mean, like, the announcement was so exciting and so overwhelming for me. I mean, like, this has always been a huge dream for me to be ASC, huge, huge, like, major, major. And it's overwhelming to realize how many people also have the same dream for you, you know, and so that me being ASC, not only means a lot to me, it means a lot to other people. And so that's just, it's like, it's a lot. And then just like, I mean, I've been coming to the clubhouse for events and going to the Awards, and just to, you know, just to be around other people who geek out about the same things that I do, and just, you know, just the joy and the generosity, and it's been really great. I mean, I'm sure there's an impact on my career that I don't even recognize yet, but I'm just so new to it, and I'm just just super delighted to be here. And I mean, like the resources, like educational resources, like to make myself even better is great. And yesterday I was on a panel with this organization, Hollywood CPR, that they did yesterday morning. And that was great, just to, you know, like the ASC already has the infrastructure to give back to certain communities, and so I don't have to figure it out all on my own. Like, you know, like, I think on the second day that I was ASC, you know, I now have a mentee, and so, like, it's, like, it's already built in of ways that you can give back, you know, that still work with your schedule and still work with your personality. And that's just, that's terrific, yeah.

I mean, well, talking about how much of an emphasis there is on education in the ASC, do you have any advice or anything that you want to give to up and coming DPs?

I mean, other than "shoot everything," I don't know. For advice, I will say to people, like, when someone, someone else gives you advice, like, always, just sort of be mindful of the source. Meaning, like, who's the person giving you the advice, and are they the best person to give you advice in a situation? Like, it's also just generational, like, I don't I always want to be really careful about giving advice to younger generation that is based so on my experience, because they're just not going to have those experiences, like there's a lot of challenges or whatever that I had to face that they just don't have anymore. And I don't want to build into them a fear that no longer exists. You know, that's just not an issue anymore. So I give my advice, and then I say, "but you know, don't take it," like, if it's not, if it works great, if it doesn't, you know. But ultimately, they just have to stay true to themselves.

You can follow Martin on Instagram here. Her personal website is here.